Crime and No Punishment
Jul 24, '07 12:39 PMfor everyone
Aren't people who just followed the order of state power and committed some serious crimes guilty after the state lost its political power?
Tags: crime, punishment
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Comments:Chronological Reverse Threaded

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ullangoo wrote on Jul 24Tricky. In Munich in 1945, the answer was yes.

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mercedo wrote on Jul 24Many Tokko -literally means special high-class police, which is similar to Gestapo in Nazis Germany were acquitted from any charges in 1947 as a part of special forgiveness bestowed along with taking effect of San Francisco Peace Treaty that settled the compensation between Japan and allied countries.
Yes, there are some cases before and after the World War II, or the collapse of Communist regime of East Europe. Those directed were usually charged, those only followed their order found no charges.

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paji2 wrote on Jul 24Nuernberg addressed that question in some detail .. there may be some argument in favor of those who had no power to do otherwise vs those who exercised power in discharging those criminal acts. It is easy to say that everyone should say "No" to a morally wrong order - but we are not facing prison or firing gun.

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mercedo wrote today at 11:17 AMAny place at any time only whether it's unlawful is considered. However evil the act is thought, this judgement belongs to the realm of God.

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ullangoo wrote on Jul 25Sure. In Nazi Germany, you could perhaps not avoid a post as a leader of a concentration camp without risking imprisonment in one - but once you were a leader, you had some choices. You weren't forced to be a Joseph Mengele.

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paji2 wrote on Jul 25
ullangoo saidbut once you were a leader, you had some choices. You weren't forced to be a Joseph Mengele. Absolutely! I fully agree .. I guess some distinction needs to be made between those who willingly perpetrate crimes and those who have no say so in it, but must - for fear of their lives - follow orders.However, even those low on the totem pole have at times freely joined in and enjoyed their assignments.It is a difficult call, but in the end, those guilty - by virtue of power or by freely going along - must pay.

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ullangoo wrote on Jul 25I have a problem with this. Up to late 1942, the Danish government more or less supported the German occupational power, urging the public to "co-operate". Then in 1945, those who had co-operated were sentenced for treason. That, in my opinion, is immoral. People can't be punished for something that was legal when they did it. OK, we're not talking serious crimes here; mostly people who did business with the Germans.

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ullangoo wrote on Jul 25I have some more problems. Suppose we have had a civil war. The winner decides - as always - how to define "serious crimes". Perhaps we'd agree that executions without trial, torture and the like are crimes in all circumstances. It's different with concepts like "treason"; it tends to mean simply supporting the party who lost. What then?

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paji2 wrote on Jul 25
ullangoo saidSuppose we have had a civil war. The winner decides - as always - how to define "serious crimes". That is an interesting concept you introduced. Let's do a bit of make-believe:The War of Independence - suppose the British had won. How would Benedict Arnold come out?The War Between the Sates - suppose the South won. Would Sherman be tried as mass- murderer?World War 2 - Suppose Hitler were victorious. Would Roosevelt, Churchill, Gaulle, Eisenhower, Montgomery and so on be tried as war criminals?Iraq War - Suppose the Iraqi won. How would they, the "defenders" view the "invaders"? Would they demand that Bush and Chaney be handed over to be tried as war criminals?It might be argued then, that the concept of "criminal" and "hero" depends largely on which side writes the history, which side is victorious.

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ullangoo wrote on Jul 25Those who throw grenades at government troops from ambush are heroes if they win, otherwise they are murderers/terrorists. Are they guilty of crimes? In which case?

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ullangoo wrote on Jul 25Yes, that's what I meant, although I was thinking a bit less make-believe - of the civil wars in South America, mostly. Bush and Chaney ARE war criminals. Sorry, I know that's another issue.

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ullangoo wrote on Jul 25In the war of Independence, I'm pretty sure the British would have convicted the rebels if they had won. It's that dangerous treason concept. Sherman - yes, maybe. Or Lincoln.I don't know about WWII. Perhaps the most likely to be accused by the Nazis was Stalin.

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ullangoo wrote on Jul 25I don't remember the Nürnberg trials very well, but I don't think the Germans were tried for simply waging war. The issue was the crimes committed against citizens in Germany and the occupied countries, primarily Jews. Hard to find a parallel in the Allied Forces.